I think that the current trend (or at least discussion moving towards) a more open form of critique in games designn, in many ways, a good thing. However, I'm slightly concerned about the danger of this trend developing into some sort of culture of self-flagellation (as a community), rather than a positive atmosphere of critique and affirmation.

Personally, I well open critique of any work I produce. I've recently discussed Cold City (to use an example) round the table with my current gaming group and some issues were raised out of that. I find this very helpful and gives guidance for the future.

The thing I don't wnat to see is a slide into critique for critiques sake, brutal honesty simply because that becomes the cultural norm. In many ways, I see this as a highly positive movement and a debate that needs to happen. But we need to be very careful, collectively, that we don't end up heading down the wrong road.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Oh, that's a good point.

It's useful to have a general discussion about this, but I'm also asking one thing quite specifically to all the designers: do you, personally, want me to talk openly if I think something's wrong with the game?

There's arguments both ways. Talking openly: fosters "culture of open design", no publicity is bad publicity. Talking privately: means you can sort out the flaws quietly without it being splashed all over the Internet.

I realise it's quite a threatening topic. I'm not planning to go off and start threads about "Why Covenant is a pile of poo", you understand. I like the games I've bought.

Graham

{{{{{a positive atmosphere of critique and affirmation.}}}}}

Well said. I was always taught that "proper" critique ideally should be "two stars and a wish" - Two pieces of positive reinforcement, and a suggestion for a change or improvement.

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

Or, as my gf calls it, a shit sandwich. Nice thing, shit thing, nice thing.

I'm in too minds. I like people saying things about my games, I don't like people being mean to me. But, I do like honest constructive criticism, but the key word there is constructive.

Criticism for criticisms sake is not helpful. Criticism to help make a game the best it can be is.

Must remember never to have lunch with Andrew's girlfriend...

My concern would be if people use this to spread some sort of macho culture thing, where they are out and out nasty and anyone who complains isn't a Real Game Designer. It shouldn't be a cover for not bothering to develop and use proper communication skills. I haven't seen the Forge thread that was mentioned - don't hang out there - but it wouldn't surprise me too much to learn that Ron Edwards was using it in that way.

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

Good thread Graham

I say bring on the honesty - lay off the brutality. Except when it garners more XP...

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

It's useful to have a general discussion about this, but I'm also asking one thing quite specifically to all the designers: do you, personally, want me to talk openly if I think something's wrong with the game?

I'd be entirely open to having some further critique on Cold City. Or, indeed, anything I've produced. I'm fully expecting Okhrana to get totally hammered at Spodley Grange, which can only be a good thing.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

I think that we're agreed that talking openly is vital to getting constructive feedback. I'd much rather people said something bad about my game designs that said nothing at all: zero feedback is really the kiss of death.

If people like the game, I want to hear what they liked; if they didn't, I want to hear what it was they didn't like. If they just go "Yeah, that was alright", I've got nothing to work with... the game clearly isn't filling them with enthusiasm but nor are they suggesting anything I can do to improve it.

I think Shock is an exeptional case: that isn't a game in development, thats a product that people have paid money for, so they have a right to complain about the quality of that product if they're unhappy with it. I'm not worried about people criticising my game designs while they are in development: if I didn't receive any negative feedback until I'd published the game, then I'd be in trouble!

Open constructive critism is an essential part of any creative endeavour, including game design. You must be able to take your lumps if you are going to create something and put it out into the world.

Every game needs playtesters and if those groups are not encouraged to be totally honest and open with their feedback then you may as well not have them.

Negative feedback does need to be constructive. Saying 'this game sucks' is useless, saying 'this games sucks because' is much better.

Cheers
Iain

Lead Developer Mob Justice RPG

Check out my home brew games like 'Reel Adventures'

I've used the phrase "Barbed Wire Dildo Of Truth" on a number of occasions and in a number of contexts.

I know this question was asked a while back but the answer to Malcolm is, yes of course, if you were critiquing my game I'd want you to be honest, otherwise what is the point of asking? There is a difference, of course, between being honest about the flaws and putting the boot in, but if my game sucks, and I'm asking people to look at it, then I want to know.

Its different if my game is just intended for me (as an alternative to watching TV in the evenings), or my friends (who may humor me through the lousy mechanics because they like me ... or am afraid I might cut off their gaming supply), but if I have put it out in the open, or intend to sell it to people, then yes, I would really like to know if it is shit before I waste my time and pride on it.

Solipsist RPG, on its way ... eventually