Excellent. I do wonder where Andy touched you in that photo though... Aiieieee!

What happens at Spodley Grange, stays at Spodley Grange.

Iain

Lead Developer Mob Justice RPG

Check out my home brew games like 'Reel Adventures'

...especially in regard to to Umlaut.

But yes, it was an excellent and very worthwhile weekend. Lots of great company, great food and the chance to be involved in the playtesting of some really interesting and exciting games.

I got to play in The Gay Recruitment Squad Wants You! (immense fun and with real potential), 6 Bullets For Vengeance (a great take on a classic genre and with some tweaks will be spot on), Tales of the Ninja (a vague idea which lead to some really interesting and fruitful discussion) and Umlaut (which is just wrong on a whole variety of levels).

More to come in the form of AP reports on the playtests of Okhrana and Everlasting Empire (both were immensely valuable) and, of course, resposnes to the AP reports of others.

Thanks to everyone who was there.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

The pictures are here

Yes, it was completely brilliant. I'm fucking knackered, my house is a mess and I'm back at work now. I did, however, take the opportunity to weaponise both Monopoly sets after everyone else had gone with the judicious application of D12s and D20s.

I will tackle an AP thread for Umläut this evening if I have time.

I had a blast too! Lots of very fun games a-brewing in Northamptonshire! Every single one I played was great fun, so that's promising.

Had some really good, productive playtests of Six Bullets and Memories & Madness, and got lots to think about now.

Good work with the stealth infiltration of the cottage boardgames Rich! I think we should leave some books behind next time too, hidden on the bookshelves!

I think I've almost recovered after having slept for eighteen of the last twenty-four hours.

Thanks again to Rich and Claire for organising Spodley and to the rest of you for making it so much fun! I had an amazing weekend and will be raving about the games I played to anyone who'll listen for some time to come. My only regret is that we never got to play a few panels of Everlasting Empire, but that's something to look forward to for another time.

RE: Everlasting Empires

Most definitely. That was a really juicy setup we had, and some fantastic characters! Next time we all see Malcolm we'll have to pin him down and make him run it!

Also, some videos to go with those stupid fucking songs I played:

Flip Out Like A Ninja

Sumo Florist

Seepage

As mentioned in passing: DJ Ted Stevens.

People should feel free (in fact, it is mandatory) to add comments on those photos. I think you need a google account, but I think most people have those anyway.

I'm glad you all enjoyed it. In the new spirit of honest criticism, it's important to say that I didn't.

Some of the games were good and the playtest of GRS was useful.

But the discussions did my head in. Long sessions, sitting in the lounge, people waiting to talk and not listening. It was very dull.

By Sunday, discussions had started to bleed into the games, so that both Okhrana and Umlaut stopped regularly for 15 minute discussions. That night, I just couldn't stand another endless court-holding session, so I did other things.

Not a pleasant experience.

Graham

Were you mainly looking for more focus or structure to the conversations? What specifically would you change to make a future get-together more useful or enjoyable for you? If there are specific things you want to spend time discussing, would it help to schedule time to talk about them in an organised manner?

Well, one specific thing would be a decision to not talk about the game design during the game. Play it, without analysing it, then discuss it afterwards. Apart from anything else, analysing the game stops you playing it properly.

Other than that, it's more difficult. It's about persuading people to listen, rather than talk, and that's hard to legislate.

And, also, it's me saying that I didn't like the atmosphere in the lounge. And, again, that's hard to solve: or easy, in the sense that the only solution is for me not to come again.

Graham

Graham wrote:
Well, one specific thing would be a decision to not talk about the game design during the game. Play it, without analysing it, then discuss it afterwards. Apart from anything else, talking about the game design during the game stops you playing the game properly.

That's a very valid point. There were time when I was guilt of this during the playtest of Okhrana, stepping out of the mode of playing and into the mod eof immediately analysing a problem/issue that had come up.

However, I do think this presents a tricky issue: Do you wait until the game is completely over, thus preserving the flow of the game and getting a true idea of how is does/does not run or do you take time aside straight away and analyse the issue while the point that raised it is fresh in the mind?

This, for me, is a very tricky subject. I think Graham is in many ways correct: we should test how games work in play, and that means playing the game without interruption. Then again, many games are regularly interrupted by asides, game -related discussions and so forth. So, sometimes this does model actual, finished game play.

I'm not sure how to move forward with this as regards playtesting. I see valid points being made, but I'm at a loss as how to resolve them.

Graham wrote:
Other than that, it's more difficult. It's about persuading people to listen, rather than talk, and that's hard to legislate.

Enthusiasm sometimes overtakes the proper order of debate and discussion, especially (I think) when drink has been taken. I don't think the discussion were in any way fruitful (in that they didn't produce what I could see as an end result), but they did get some discussion going. In future, I'd prefer not to have a 'games design round table'. There entire weekend is something of a huge round table, so a specific period dedicated to that is somewhat unnecessary. Then again, the method of discussion didn't really bother me. But, obviously, it wasn't conducive to the enjoyment of everyone, which is a cause for concern and something to be addressed for future events.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Graham, it's unfortunate that you didn't enjoy the weekend. It appears that you didn't get what you wanted from the weekend, which I think is in part a misunderstanding of what the event was about.

It wasn't to just play games, I can (and do) do that at home every week. And so, I assume, does everyone else who was there.

It wasn't to play games with a specific bunch of people I know who I don't usually get together with. There are a dozen or so other cons I could go to for that and so, I assume, can everyone else who was there.

It wasn't just to playtest my games. I can (and do) do that at home all the time. And so, I assume, does everyone else who was there.

The point of the weekend was to playtest games and get advice on how to fix what was wrong with them. Which I can't do at home every week, because much as I love the guys I play with every week, they aren't in the same headspace when it comes to game design as the people who were there at Spodley.

So yes, if I'm running a playtest of a game I'm designing, I want to discuss what wrong with it, and I want to do that right there at the table immediately as it happens. "That didn't work, lets figure out why" is way more useful to me that "Remember when I did X and Y happened? Well, I didn't like that, can we discuss it?" The best input I had for the games I played was where people told me, there and then, that something was wrong when it happened. The iron poker of criticism is much more effective and useful to me when it's red hot, straight from the fire. Someone who holds their tongue after seeing a problem in the game either forgets some of what they've seen, or spends the rest of the game thinking about it.

It's not the purpose of a playtest to have fun with the game: It's to make the game stronger. The flow will be interrupted, but that's part and parcel of playing a game in any situation. People go to the loo, people ask questions about the rules and the setting and people talk about what was on TV last night, so I really don't see that as any different.

I leaned a lot from my playtests. I enjoyed playtesting the other games I was involved with. I had fun chilling and shooting the breeze in the evening (apart from the curry house fucking up out reservation). In all I enjoyed the whole thing tremendously.

As is often the case, Rich hits the nail on the head while I was confused and unable to articulate.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Graham, I want you to understand that I love you and I'm not saying you're wrong or evil or stupid or anything. But, tbh, Spodley turned out more or less exactly how I expected it to*. I'm sad that you didn't have fun, but do not consider that Spodley was a failure.

* with the exception that I enjoyed the actual play of the games more than I thought I would, and I was expecting to be the only fat cock around.

I agree with Rich that Spodley was a chance to get like minded people to rip my projects apart and that is better that the analysis happens at the time. It is also why I am trying to get my APs up as soon as possible so i don't forget anything. Post game analysis can be weaker cause people forget what it was that bugged them.

I am sorry that Graham didn't enjoy the weekend but I thought it was pretty much spot on. I agree with him that the scheduled design discussions could have been more organised but other than that I really enjoyed running my games, playing in the others and just chewing the fat with you fine folks.

Cheers

Iain

Lead Developer Mob Justice RPG

Check out my home brew games like 'Reel Adventures'

FWIW with regards to play-testing I'm in agreement with Graham. I figure you put something together and go through it, warts and all, with the rules and procedures as written and reflect back on it afterwards.

I think that way you can see the totality of the experience, as well as each incremental part.

It's like playing in a band. If you stopped for every fucked-up note you would never get through a whole a song.

I wasn't at Spodley so I don't know the ins and outs, but it's probably a tall order to expect everyone to be on the same page and get the same thing out of it.

OK.

The core of what I'm saying, to be clear, isn't about playtest methodology. It's about listening skills.

During the weekend, I was seeing a lot of saying one's piece; a lot of explaining "why I wrote the game this way"; not much listening to feedback.

Perhaps an example would help. After one playtest, I talked to another player about the game. We agreed that there was lots of stuff we'd like to say, but hadn't, because it was difficult to tell the designer.

I'm suggesting that the most important change you could make, to make your game better, would be: stop talking about it, start listening.

I hope that's not too direct. If I wrap it up in nice language, it sounds as if I'm saying "No-one listened to me!", which isn't quite the point.

And, unless anyone's got any final points, shall we leave that discussion there? I thought those points were important to make, but I've got no desire to argue. It was a tiring weekend and I'm content to forget it.

Graham

Yes, just one final point. I don't think it serves much of a purpose to say "I felt that this person didn't listen" and leave it at that. If it were me, I would like to know rather than think "Crap! Am I missing out on valuable feedback due to cloth-earedness and lack of civility?" Whether people are told by email or what, i think this should be done. On a personal level, I would want to know in order to make things better for the future.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios